PLAY TOGETHER, STAY TOGETHER - HAPPY AND HEALTHY PLAY BETWEEN PEOPLE AND DOGS
by Patricia McConnell and Karen London
PLAY WITH YOUR DOG
by Pat Miller
OH BEHAVE! - DOGS FROM PAVLOV TO PREMACK TO PINKER
by Jean Donaldson
CANINE BEHAVIOR - A PHOTO ILLUSTRATED HANDBOOK
by Barbara Handelman
GET CONNECTED WITH YOUR DOG - EMPHASIZING THE RELATIONSHIP WHILE TRAINING YOUR DOG BOOK & DVD
by Brenda Aloff
BARKING - THE SOUND OF A LANGUAGE
by Turid Rugaas
POSITIVE PERSPECTIVES 2 - KNOW YOUR DOG, TRAIN YOUR DOG
by Pat Miller
WHEN PIGS FLY - TRAINING SUCCESS WITH IMPOSSIBLE DOGS
by Jane Killion
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blueberrytulips
Member
Posts: 46
Joined: Jan 2004
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Thu July 20, 2006 5:18 PM
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I have, I think, one of the world's most stubborn dogs. When we go out for a walk, as soon as he doesn't want to go the way we're going, Marco will put on the brakes. At first I thought he was afraid of something up ahead - something he was aware of that I couldn't see. But now I think it's just because I'm not going in a pre-approved direction. It often happens at corners (when I want to left but a friend of his lives to the right), and it happens a lot on straight-aways when he simply wants to turn around and go back/home. What do I do? I got a Halti, but those are really designed for the exact opposite problem. I try luring him with treats, which sometimes works, but not consistently enough to change his behavior. I recently started going as far ahead of him as the leash would allow, and just standing there...waiting him out. That works occasionally, but just when I thought that was the trick, he decided to simply lie down and wait ME out. I would love some suggestions about how to get my dog to stop playing freeze tag with himself!
Rebecca
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colliemom
Senior Member
Posts: 1141
Joined: Mar 2006
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Fri July 21, 2006 8:57 AM
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How big is he, how old is he, what breed or type, what is the weather like? My hairy guys will go on sit-down strike if:
The weather is extreme (hot or cold) and they are tired
They don't want to leave the park or some other nice place and I do -- this is indicated usually with a "please give me a tummy rub", too, accompanied by a soulful look.
The first one is solved by: a) always carry water in a sports bottle (even if you go out of the house for a 10 minute walk) they can drink it AND you can squirt it on their hot feet in summer -- or you can check for pebbles/salt/ice balls between the toes in winter b) don't go out in the heat of the day (consider booties for winter if there is lots of ice and salt where you are.)c) assess how far you HAVE walked and maybe you are asking too much based on the weather d) consider whether there is some thing or some being that the dog doesn't want to see e) are you going so slowly he thinks you want to stop? I usually keep a pretty fast pace when walking with my guys
The second one is solved in various ways -- just as one would with a kid that goes on strike about leaving the park. The last thing you want to do is drag the dog, really, though some might say that is the best way. One time I even looked at the guys and said, "You are right, it is too nice a night to leave." And we played some more and then when it was time again they were ready to go. Some would say I'm letting my dogs boss me, there, but I regard this as allowing them some say in their lives, and since they are collies, well, they have to have a sense of participation in decision-making. I also will make it a game, sometimes. When it is time to go, I say, "Let's RUN to the car! Yippie, we are going to the CAR!" Other times I do say, "Enough, guys! We're going home! And just start walking!" USUALLY that is enough, but a stubborn dog is a stubborn dog, so if you have to go around behind and LIFT him up and tell him that he is not listening and we are going HOME, then do that. My collies do not like that. Having their rear ends hoisted and moved is, well, undignified. My big guy will pout on the ride home -- the little guy sort of takes it as, "Whhooo, she really meant it, too bad, I didn't get my way this time ..." But not all dogs will respond to that. Collies are VERY VAIN.
Thus, the number of "on strikes" I've had since summer began were TWO. Once, my tired little guy was too pooped to participate about 1/2 a block from home after training and once my big guy led the strike at the park. That was the time I "gave in". When little guy stopped, I gave him some more water, squirted his toes and rubbed his back, and in a minute or two he was ready to go home.
If it is really because he'd rather go in another direction, and you aren't on an errand, why not go the way he wants to? Dogs get bored with the same old walk, you know. Perhaps he wants to "check the mail" on the trees and lampposts of some other street.
This is a good time to teach him "right" and "left", too. Then you can say, "Marco, we're going LEFT today!" And you can ask him once in awhile -- "Left or right? And if he chooses right, you can say, Marco went RIGHT!"
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blueberrytulips
Member
Posts: 46
Joined: Jan 2004
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Fri July 21, 2006 9:27 AM
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Marco is a 40lb Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever. If I let him choose, we'd go the exact same way every day: to dog friend #1's house, to dog friend #2's house, and so on. He's definitely not looking for variety, but I am! And unfortunately, the behavior is not about the weather. It happens year round and we live in a very mild climate - Santa Cruz, CA. It's also not about reluctance to leave anywhere, because it generally happens mid-walk in the middle of the road/sidewalk all around the neighborhood. He doesn't do it at the beach, and he doesn't (usually) do it on trails. Just when he's walking in a neighborhood - even one different from our own. Of course, that's the environment in which the most number of people can see me being humiliated by this stubborn boy.
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colliemom
Senior Member
Posts: 1141
Joined: Mar 2006
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Fri July 21, 2006 2:02 PM
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NSDTRs are a) very friendly b) pushy, demanding and entertaining c) habituated to routine ... but you know all that. They are, fundamentally, pack dogs, too. And I suppose if you DON'T take him out for a couple of days he'd be bouncing off the walls, so "ignoring" him will never work.
Amazing how much pull 40lbs can exert, eh ... does he know how to do puppy pushups? "Up, up", "down down", etc. Practice at home. Up into a sit. Down into a full down (pull the treat forward on the floor) Stand. I do mine with my boys while I'm eating breakfast. And so what if you use teeny treats? Then, "up up" when he goes on strike. The guy is probably grinning to beat the band at "humiliating" you. Another idea is to have his dog friend and that two foot "appear" at the "right" turn by pre-arrangement. If that happens a couple of unplanned times, then he'll never know where his friends will appear, and he might be more amenable to having his mind changed. Of course he doesn't do it at the BEACH -- that is his "natural habitat" there is "BEACH" to both the right and left. He's making you come to him not only to get his way but because it is FUN.
NSDTRs love to tease -- of course you know that is what "Tolling" is -- teasing the ducks to bring them closer to shore, and he is deciding YOU are a DUCK, so, when he is down and he still won't get up, beat him at his own "game" and use a long lead and run backwards as you call his name and wave your arms in a come here gesture and a happy voice. You may have to do a little fancy footwork back and forth to get him to come to you. D clip the 30' long lead to your belt or fanny pack, because then you can wave both arms and he won't know think YOU are pulling him on the gentle leader.
You may have to work on some "boss" behaviours. Sit before eating. Sit for his water bottle. Sit to be petted, too. That helps keep the rascal from treating you like a duck. These are SUCH beautiful dogs. (Almost as pretty as collies, eh? LOL)
The great thing about dogs is that we get to have an excuse to act silly. He's not TRYING to humiliate you. He wants to PLAY, and has decided this game is big fun. So make coming to you and doing what you want a bigger sort of fun. And, hey, if you live in Santa Cruz, I hear people there are always into "fun". Get a passerby to help. He'll make a million friends. There have to be potential buddies in the other direction, right?
He may respond too, to a little squeeky toy that only comes out for going on walks. For the hell of it, get him a rubber duckie! You can keep it in the fanny pack and use it in all sorts of ways -- for the Up, Up, for throwing to get him out of a mess, for getting him to try new things ... these guys are big into lure/reward.
What does the breeder say?
Oh, and I still say that he needs to learn left and right, too. These guys bore easily, and a town street might not be as interesting as he likes, certainly.
Edited: Fri July 21, 2006 at 2:10 PM by colliemom
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colliemom
Senior Member
Posts: 1141
Joined: Mar 2006
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Tue July 25, 2006 9:15 AM
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Ducks are your answer. Squeekies are your answer. And if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck ... It's a DUCK.  Anything you want him to do -- make him think it is about getting closer to a "duck". I'd go on line and find a duck call instead of a whistle if I were you ... you can use that in off leash instead and have him come to you! (I don't know about whether a duck call would be acceptable in competition agility, though.) Donald Duck cartoons ... Think about how to amuse your guy. Otherwise, he will find ways to amuse himself ... Remember, you have a dog with a sense of humour who will LOVE to play tricks on you to get his way ... He can use his powers for good, rather than "evil" of course. Probably would love Agility -- and "skills" -- I prefer to call what others might call "tricks" skills. There are LOTS of "skills" this guy can do and would LOVE to do. "Crawling through the brush" -- leaping through tires. Even climbing ladders. Hide and seek, for sure! And you might as well teach him to bring you things, since his nose will be going everywhere. Try teaching him to bring you keys, for example. (Make sure you have spares, because then he'll hide them on you and tease you ...) Put a little peanut butter or spray cheeze (do they even SELL that in Santa Cruz ...) on the keys to hide the metal taste at first.
I wish I could say I "invented" the term "puppy push-ups" but it is not my own. I first heard it from my collie breeder. I do them with my little guy to help him focus in the mornings. Otherwise, he's roving about looking for his own mischief, whoops, I mean work. So, a little work out and a reminder that -- ahem -- two foots are in charge helps.
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blueberrytulips
Member
Posts: 46
Joined: Jan 2004
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Tue July 25, 2006 5:25 PM
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Okay, so you bring up two new issues (and this is the wrong thread for it...but heck).
1) Marco cannot have plush toys. He devours them in an instant, and makes himself sick with too much fuzz in his belly. So, I took 'em all away. Then...he started chewing his tail. The vet says it's an attention-getting mechanism (she even suggested OCD medication) and now we leave the room whenever he does it. But I'm really wondering if it's displacement because he doesn't have any more stuffed animals.
2) I'm sure it'll be no surprise to you that Marco is absolutely obsessive about toys, now and then, and the only way to get any rest is to sometimes hide his current fascination. The only place in the entire house where he doesn't eventually locate the object is if we hide it in the....freezer. His nose isn't quite that good. (If we hide it in a cupboard, he'll find it. If we hide it in the clothes dryer, he'll find it. If we hide it in the garage, despite two doors - one of which is fireproof - he'll find it.) Anway, just wondering if you think we're making him insane by hiding things from him.
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colliemom
Senior Member
Posts: 1141
Joined: Mar 2006
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Thu July 27, 2006 9:03 AM
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There are many reasons for OCD. And, there is a school of thought which argues that tail-chasing is NOT OCD, but genetically hard-wired behaviour. Remember what Tollers are SUPPOSED to do -- tease, fuss, and generally stir up attention from minding-their-own bidness DUCKS! Tollers get BORED. Tollers are like kids in the dog days of summer -- I'm soooo booooored what can I dooooooo? Hiding things in the freezer is a great idea (fewer smelly cells emanating delicious smells if the smelly cells are cold) but any self-respecting Toller is going to figure out where you put things by other means eventually. Hmmmm, why does she go to the freezer before my toy appears ... Hmm, I deduce that toy is in the freezer. So, I will sit and STARE at the freezer if I can't reach the handle, which I will try to do incessantly, and maybe I can move that chair ... or induce HER to move that chair .... or wait until the chair is in reach by happenstance ...
I taught my boys not to tear apart their fuzzy toys by treating the fuzzy toys like, well, this is slightly embarassing, valuable objects which we pet and care for and pat and cuddle and rock like babies. Yes, I have kissed dog-saliva wet toys and said, "Ooooh, thank you for bringing me Growly Bear! Growly Bear is a goood boy, too, let's give Growly Bear kisses, ooooh Growly Bear is hiding under the blanket, ooooh, silly Growly Bear, bring mummy Growly Bear for moooore kisses! So, MOST (but not all) of the time, that is exactly how they treat their toys. The little guy will sometimes rip their heads off just to see how they are put together and get the stuffing stuck on his tongue and he makes that "aaack!" Snoopy/Lucy noise and look and I say OOOOOOOh, blechhh! Yuckie! Bring Mr. Shmoo here so mommy can fix him .... and right in front of their very eyes I sew the head back on and say We doooon't want to hurt Mr. Shmoo aaaanyyyy more. Meanwhile, the little guy is doing the "Ptui, phffft, Ptui" noise. Let's put Mr. Shmooo to beddy-bye and you take care of Mr. Shmoo. And, being collies, they "stand (or sit or lounge) on guard", which is, for collies, just as much fun as running around the house and acting like "devil dog" . I'm not sure whether this works for Tollers. Have you tried it?
Edited: Thu July 27, 2006 at 9:14 AM by colliemom
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Ollie and Augie
Senior Member
Posts: 743
Joined: Apr 2006
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Fri July 28, 2006 7:42 AM
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Our first dog used to pull similar stunts. She would insist on crossing the road at certain points, and would first balk, and then lie down on the sidewalk if she didn't feel like going in the direction we were taking her, or just felt it was time to go home. We tried treats, we tried toys, we discussing the matter with her like intelligent adults (*cough*) Needless to say, it didn't work.
Then it was pointed out to us that we were supposed to be in charge, and that by stopping to try to bribe or reason with her, we were basically giving in to her demands - namely that forward motion should stop. So in addition to practicing leash manners in a more controled environment (the yard), we did the following when out on walks: the second she began to "drag" we told her to heel, followed by a very gentle leash correction if she didn't comply. If she physically stopped and/or lay down, we calmly but firmly and immediately took her by the collar and pulled her up/forward and got her moving again (getting her up would occasionally require a hand under her belly in addition to on her collar - for a 40lb Keeshond, she did an amazing impersonaltion of a sack of potatoes). No scolding, no conversation, just get her up and continue walking.
The "calm" part was the hardest 
I can't say it was fun, and at first we spend a LOT of time picking her up (we'd get her up and moving for all or 5 feet and then she'd dig in again), but we kept at it and she did get the message that we weren't going to play into her trap and stop moving. She'd still try it now and again, just to test, but after probably a week or so we could get her through her walks without some kind stranger reassuring us that "it's always hard to walk someone else's dog."
The behavior vanished entirely, by the way, when years later we got a second dog (Oliver). Griffin was never more well-behaved than when trying to set herself appart and above another dog. Not an option for most, I know.
(colliemom, we got one of those squirrel stumps for Augie, our resuced year-old blue heeler mix. He loved it. To death :lol: He played with the squirrels, then when we put them in the stump, he picked the thing up and shook it back and forth vigorously until the little things all came shooting out. Then he, uh, did some renovations on the stump. some might say he ripped open the little holes, me I like to think he was just making it handicapped-accessible. He still loves those little squirrels, though)
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- but I AM a Dr. Vickery fan 
"Some people just need to be bitten"
-MMC, the dogwalker
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Stumped in Seattle
Member
Posts: 2
Joined: Aug 2006
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Fri August 04, 2006 8:41 AM
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I have a question for Ollie and Augie: Your approach seems very logical, but did you have this problem? When I gently help him get going, as you describe, Jack immediately rolls over on his back. At this point, if I try to roll him back over, he snaps at me. He's about sixty pounds, so I can't just pick him up off the ground. I don't want to drag him, and it doesn't work anyway (again, he snaps).
I'm only dogsitting for a few days, so I won't be able to solve the problem, but I'm simply curious. I should also mention his parents spoil him terribly (he's pretty overweight, as well).
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Ollie and Augie
Senior Member
Posts: 743
Joined: Apr 2006
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Fri August 04, 2006 9:32 AM
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As I said, our first dog did this all the time. She was smaller than what you're dealing with - 40-45 pounds. She never tried rolling over, but Oliver has used that tactic on occasion (not on walks, but he'll do the 'lie down and roll over' bit if we're trying to get him to come in from the back yard and he doesn't want to. Our response to that is one hand on the collar, on hand under the back (preferably on the side that will give you the best leverage) and lift. I find this is easier if I'm crouching (better leverage)
Snapping - and here I must give a little disclaimer, I am NOT a trainer, vet or animal behaviorist, I can't give/don't pretend to give professional advice. We did do a lot of work with Oliver because of his food issues and fear aggression (he came to us at 3 years of age, having been badly, badly neglected), and we did have the advice of a professional at the time and did work for us/Ollie. But, that may not work with this dog and/or your situation.
First, if you can get at his collar before he rolls over, and you use your whole hand, you might head off the snapping in the first place. Also, IF the snapping seems to be of a warning nature and not an honest attempt to bite you, AND IF you are comfortable asserting yourself, you might want to try not giving in. I don't mean responding by pushing back, I mean just not stopping what you are trying to do. Giving in just reinforces that snapping gets him what he wants.
That said, it's not worth your fingers, or a bunch of gray hair, especially not for a dog you are only babysitting. Whatever you decide to do now, I would definitely talk to Jack's owners about this, and if they don't take it seriously and try to correct this kind of behavior, I don't think I'd offer to dog-sit again.
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- but I AM a Dr. Vickery fan
"Some people just need to be bitten"
-MMC, the dogwalker
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My point is a smart dog like this can also easily figure out how much fun it is to come with you for the right incentive. You are in a competition with the rest of the world to be more interesting. Do what it takes and the rest does follow. Don't lure the dog with food-that loses it's novelty very soon. It may work to get started but do it only for a very short period.