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Topic Title: question about dog urinating on another dog
Created On Sun July 01, 2007 12:26 AM
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akiyla.and.zeus
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Sun July 01, 2007 12:26 AM
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hello! i have never used the forums here at dogwise.com (i actually didn't realize they existed!), but i have a question a client brought up to me about her dog. the dog is around 7 months old and is a neutered male. she says in the last couple of weeks, when another dog begins to pee in her dog's general area (at the dog park or in the yard, etc.), her dog will then pee as well, but he is peeing ON the other dog. he is a small dog, so i guess that works in her favor, but it is still something she obviously wants him to stop doing. i personally haven't heard of a dog actually peeing ON another dog in this way. she says it's only when another dog is already going to the bathroom that her dog does this, and it's not every time, but it has been several times in the past couple of weeks. is this something anyone has heard of? all i can think of is it might be the dog attempting to increase distance of other dogs from that space, but i don't know why he would actually pee on the other dog rather than the space. any advice on what this could be and what i might advise her to do to work on stopping this behavior would be very much appreciated!
 
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djgr
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Sun July 01, 2007 11:51 AM
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I have no answers for you, but it reminded me of a funny story many years ago, I was dating some guy and we were at the park and he was laying down in the grass and his very own dog came up to him and lifted his leg and peed on his head, I was so astounded I couldn't do anything, of course that relationship didn't work out and I wondered for a long time if the dog was trying to tell me something.
DJ
 
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Shiplesp
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Sun July 01, 2007 12:43 PM
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Male dogs pee to mark territory, as well as for elimination. They also tend to pee over another dog's pee to indicate their stake in that space. (You will also notice when dogs pee against a vertical surface they try to get higher than the last dog who peed there. For some reason higher pee is a sign of higher status.) So, it's likely that this dog is partially marking over the other dog's pee AND marking the other dog. Dogs will also sometimes mark human legs in the same way.

I'm not sure how to stop this, other than having a good recall so that she can call her dog away from other dogs when he's following them too closely and this is likely to happen.

Susan
 
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tigerente
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Sun July 08, 2007 1:29 PM
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My pug does this to other dogs. A little background on him...
I adopted him 6 months ago from a family who never broght him around other dogs, and babied him. He has a serious napoleon complex and is extremly dominant. He will get aggressive when other dogs try to fight with him or bother him, but he never starts anything on his own and is generally fairly happy and playful with other dogs, just extremly dominant and in charge of everything.
He started doing it to my female dog, a lab shepard mix. They are still trying to figure out who the boss is in their relationship. The female is older and came first, so I treat her as beta dog, and the pug as last dog. She gets fed first and attention first, and he gets second. Which is working pretty well so far, because she is smart, calm and an alpha bitch anyway.
So he had started doing it to other dogs at the dog park, I am a dog walker/ pet sitter so I go every day. I have to watch him like a hawk and if I see him going toward another dog while it is elminating, I yell a loud "leave it" and then holler in a nicer happy tone "come" and if he comes over, he gets tons of praise. If he keeps getting closer, I yell again in a more angry tone and walk over to him and make him sit down and ignore the other dog. So far it has been working. In the yard at home, he is still hit or miss, but most of the time, he waits his turn now and pees on top of the other dogs' pee.
 
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RottieWoman
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Mon September 17, 2007 10:12 AM
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Please be careful about the use of the term "alpha" - it tends to be overused and the position is actually very fluid -

Just a friendly note thrown out as a general reminder :-)

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Rottie Mommy in WI - USA
 
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colliemom
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Mon September 17, 2007 11:26 AM
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Ah, the great pee questions! As with cigars, sometimes a pee is just a pee. Or not. Especially when there is a fun smelly pole or tree or especially sniffy spot. Sometimes our dear doggies crowd one another and have a "miss" by accident. Sometimes not. Sometimes an exuberant youngster misses, and then gets "told" by someone else to wait his or her! turn. One must look at these things in context and have a sense of humour. Sometimes too, my "brothers" seem to purposely get into "pee contests" as a game. And, if the younger one "gets" the older one, whether by accident or design, sometimes the older one "gets" the younger one right back. Think of dogs as happy two-and-a-half to three year olds. There is no disgust for that which we "adults" are taught to avoid.
 
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tigerente
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Wed September 19, 2007 3:57 PM
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Quote

Originally posted by: RottieWoman
Please be careful about the use of the term "alpha" - it tends to be overused and the position is actually very fluid -

Just a friendly note thrown out as a general reminder :-)



I have been thinking about what you said, and been thinking about my dogs. Sorry to steal thread here and go off topic, but I am curious if what I think is fairly accurate.
My pug ( 2 yo, male) is not alpha, he wishes desperatly that he were alpha, but no dogs except extremly submissive dogs actually submit to him. He never backs down from anything. Stands on his hind legs to be taller than other dogs constantly, is protective of his food, treats and toys. He urinates on other dogs occasionally while they are urinating or deficating. He has never submitted to another dog, and never backs down to confrontations. This gets him into trouble sometimes. For the most part, he is not aggressive.
My lab mix(4-5 yo female), (who I think is lab shepard and pit) is alpha. Other dogs come up to her, cower and lick her chin allover. She is very confident, in controll of every situation. If she sees another dog out of place or out of line, she will correct their behavior. She can be overly aggressive at times, but is never excited, always level headed and precise about everything she does and does not go out of her way to make other dogs respect her. They just automatically do. When I first got her a year and a half ago, she did not listen to me, or respect my authority. Now she does listen, and does respect me, but she will always go by her instinct and look for my response later.
Is it fair then to assume that my lab is alpha type? How do I deal with the battle for dominance between my pug and my lab? I automatically give top position to my girl because she came first, and is more calm and well mannered than my pug. I am not sure how to command respect from a dog that will not give respect to any other dog or human. While he is not aggressive, he has to do everything his way and can be so stubborn and thick headed about everything.
Its only been 7 months and in some ways, he has improved, but in other ways it has gotten much worse.
 
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RottieWoman
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Hi, tigerente,

One suggestion I have would be to talk to a positive trainer in your area who does behavioral consults, or find an actual behaviorist and speak with them. My first impression of your little pug is that the "standing on hind legs" (could equal height-seeking) , urinating on other dogs and the guarding actually are aggressive signals that I would really watch. Without having seen both the dogs and the human family members, it's very hard to say anything definitive. Aggression does not have mean actually biting - there's a scale of arousal (arousal correlates with aggression). One of the things I've learned is that the human REALLY has to be careful of trying to emulate the supposed wolf-pack heirarchy by having these "chains of command" - that it is better to just have the human be the general boss of All Good Stuff, and the dogs are just much-loved, Furry Beings all kind of the same status, below Humans - Humans decide, not dogs. So, the thing about which dog does such-and such first - "eating first", "through doors first ", "gets on bed", etc., tends to lead to problems - Humans decide, and we can decide that one day, one dog goes through door first (dogs getting through door AT ALL means that first ALL dogs need to exhibit calm behavior, no in-fighting) , the next day, a different dog goes through the same door first - or no dogs, only human goes. Not sure which books or other materials you have looked at - some of my faves are anything by Dr. Patricia McConnell, Sara Kalnajs (AWESOME DVD's), Suzanne Clothier, Pamela Dennison.......

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Rottie Mommy in WI - USA
 
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colliemom
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Thu September 20, 2007 9:34 AM
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A pug who thinks he's in charge of the universe? Never heard of such a thing! Since he wasn't socialized as a pup, and he probably got picked up and pampered like some thing made of glass, and never had to learn to do anything properly, instead of the sturdy little dog that he is, he's likely thinking, "What? You mean I have to learn all the kindegarten rules? Take turns, play well with others, share, wait my turn?"

One of the difficulties is, as a teeny dog, a lab/shep might be confused by his behaviour. Hey -- he looks like a puppy, has a neotonal face like a puppy, is a pain in the patootie like a puppy, but he never grows! What's the story here? So, there are times when you have to ensure he learns to respect the other dog's space -- as in, "These are the house rules. We all sit for supper. We all sit before we go in a door. We all sit at street corners. We share the couch ..." you get my drift. If the lab/shep had a pretty loose routine, well, this is going to be a bit annoying as the lab/shep has to go back to basics, but a tune up is good for everyone. Especially you. The pug will need a pretty steady routine all the time. One imposed by you, that is. And one of the things on the routine might be some training walks sans the lab/shep. Then, the lab/shep gets some time alone, too, unmolested by marauding little Napoleon, and with time for an uninterrupted snooze. Of course that means you are doubling your walking time, because the lab/shep is still going to need walkies, too, but you are a commodity and each dog should have a little "mom time" alone. In time you can mix it up. Some separate; some together. Eventually, most times together.

You might have to feed him separately, too. My guys are totally weird, and totally collie and actually SHARE their food without fuss and through some innate collie signalling sort out when, exactly, to switch bowls and how much to leave for one another, but Mr. Napoleon is not of the same mind set. Plus, puggies will eat til they burst, usually.

And, weird as it is, I can say to my Oliver, "hey, stop bugging your 'brother'," and he will straighten up (most of the time) and find something else to do. I get a grateful look from Robbie, who is older and often wiser than Oliver. But they are of the same breed(er, too) and relatively close in upbringing and equal in size and shape.

Please tell me that you are working on proper leash training for the little guy. Almost every pug I see is using one of those horrible, dangerous "flexible leads" which would make a well-behaved, leashtrained lab/shep pretty frustrated with a "pup" unable to walk properly and behave himself. Robbie was like, uh, mortified until Oliver learned his leash manners and how to behave in public. He'd look at me with such resignation. Even now, when bouncy Oliver has a lapse, I swear Robbie's embarrassment is palpable. I can practically hear him say, as a teenager with a younger sib might, "Muuuuuthhheeeeerrrrrr, DO something about that child! It's embaarrrrasssing to be in public with him!"
 
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tigerente
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Thu September 20, 2007 10:49 AM
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Colliemom, surprisingly enough the pug is the well mannered one on leash. He doesn't pull and only walks a couple of steps ahead to avoid being stepped on. The lab mix is the one I have not been able to get to walk politely on a leash. I have had her a year and a half now, and we have gone from insane pulling on the leash and wanting to kill all other dogs and animals, to slightly annoying pulling on the leash and high alertness when we see other animals. She was way underweight when I adopted her, even after a month or two of being in shelters and foster, and she originally came from a rural shelter. I have a theory that she may have been used for hunting or perhaps hunted and killed her own food. Or she just has an unnaturally high prey drive/ hunting instinct.
I have tried a halti with her, a prong collar, a no pull harness, a canny collar, a choke chain and have had best success so far with the prong collar. But she still pulls. She is not food or praise motivated when we are outside of the house. So when I walk her, I tie her leash around my waist so that she only has so much slack and can't pull ahead.
The dogs have been fed seperatly from day one. Since I am a dog walker and pet sitter, they are around a million other dogs every day and are treated like one of the pack when they are with them. Not given special attention or treatment, but do get hours of exersize everyday. It has been hard for me to devote time for individual walks for them. At most I can do their usual two to three mile walk in the evening with my husband. We take one each and walk together.
They are getting to the point where I can give them bones and treats with out them fighting, but they still fight for my affection and attention.
We have a strict routine of sitting and waiting for food, treats, getting in the car, waiting to go through doors, etc. I wish I had more time for reading behavioral books. I teach basic and puppy classes at a pet store, sit stay etc, so they both know their basic manners at least because I use them as demo dogs.
I hate flexi leads. I'll just keep it at that.
And Rottiemom, I talked to my head trainer in my district about their power struggles. She said to just let them fight it out as long as there were no injuries going on. So I guess in a way, I am treating them as equals. No one dog gets more attention or treats, no one dog gets first all the time. But I do let my lab put him in his place if she feels the need to. And equally now, they steal bones back and forth from each other. Where as in the beginning, they would have fought to the death over a bone. Like right now, the pug is chewing on a raw bone and the lab walked right past him and there were no growls or snaps or anything. Vast improvement over 6 months ago. I couldn't let them have bones in each others presence. They had to be kenneled.

Edited: Wed November 19, 2008 at 9:55 AM by tigerente
 
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RottieWoman
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Thu September 20, 2007 12:39 PM
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Thanks for your reply and website. I am a trainer at a positive training school. If your Lab mix ever gets to pull on leash, even a teeny bit, just once (and I'm not saying you do, just using it to share a point), then she will pull on the leash always or most times, because the payoff was there that one time. Variable reinforcement is very highly rewarding. You can teach her what she CAN do besides pull on the leash. Make her NOT pulling be a big payoff, more rewarding than pulling.

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Rottie Mommy in WI - USA
 
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tigerente
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And how do I do that? She has pulled on the leash from the very first moment I had her. I am not sure that she was ever even on a leash before I met her. She was about 3 years old and an owner surrender. That is all I know about her past. She was rescued out of a high kill shelter in a rural area by a larger recue org. in the area. Then went into foster care because she had a bad case of kennel cough. I saw her picture on pet finder and met her at her foster home and just fell in love. She is the sweetest, most smart loving caring dog in the world untill we go out on that leash. She fiercely gaurds the house too, but that is another story, and I really don't mind her gaurding our house really.
I am not sure how to make not pulling rewarding to her, she isn't interested in food, she doesn't even look at me when I say her name, she couldn't care less about praise. Also, she doesn't follow her nose or her ears, just uses her eyes. Intensly staring at every thing like that intense stare you see a border collie give. I have been thinking about making a doggy blindfold, but that may just be silly and do more harm than good. What do you think? Maybe get a pair of doggles and black out the lenses. She also remembers every spot she has ever seen a cat or a squirrel no matter how long it has been since we walked by that spot, and she goes nuts trying to find it again. She also pulls and strains to look up each walk way and onto each porch and down each ally to see if there is a cat. The funny thing is, we have two cats at home, and she is sweet and gentle with them. Lets them crawl on her, lick her and she licks them back. And half the time she ignores them. Its those outdoor cats and critters that really get her going.
She is amazing off leash when we go hiking. She stays close in front or behind, she generally keeps within 20-30 feet of me. I live in the city and I can't trust her with other cats or critters running around so we really need to get this leash thing worked out.
 
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RottieWoman
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If she isn't interested in food on the walks, my impression would be that 1) she is too distracted by the environment and/or 2) she is too stresed. Stressed dogs won't eat. You could possibly test that by asking her to do a known and simple behavior and see if she does it. So, without actually having seen what is going on, one suggestion I have would actually be to "go back to kindergarten" and start again by working with her on-leash, inside the house, during a quiet time where presumably she is familiar enough with the area that it is boring. Have the leash in one hand and tasty (not dry kibble- try cheese, cold cuts, raw meat, meaty and freeze-dried treats) treats in the other. Just pretend that you are going off somewhere and start walking. Don't ask her for anything and see if she'll meander off and the leash will get tight. When it does, stop and wait her out. The moment she turns her attention from wandering and looks toward or at you, mark that behavior with a verbal "yes" or with a Clicker and treat her (does this sound familiar?) If she lets the leash go slack and looks at you, or comes back to you, jackpot it. Another idea, particularly w/a big and excited dog, is that you initiate a lot of changes in direction and speed as you are walking with her on-leash, so you're basically going back and forth. You need to be more exciting than what else is out there, and one way to do that is by being unpredictable such that she thinks that it is "great game" and that she better pay more attention to you because, who knows what direction you'll go in or what you'll do?! Also, a very high rate of reinforcement in both examples (work in house and making the walk encompass a variety of movement) at the beginning in particular, because as I said, you have to be more rewarding than the other things in the environment, and that means really increasing the rewards you are using. Work sub-threshold, so you may need at first to work just in the house, and then just outside in the yard on a line on a quiet day. If you try to do this with too much distraction, where she just won't pay any attention, won't eat, then the odds are you have tried to do too much for her level and she can't learn that way.

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Rottie Mommy in WI - USA
 
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RottieWoman
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I stopped to give you a rest :-) that intense stare may be a sign of high arousal and is probably a targeting behavior - she has something in her sights and she is going to keep track of it!! If you see that happening, she is probably over-threshold and trying to get her attention, especially by saying her name, is likely not to work and she will just learn to ignore her name. So, in that situation, I would just get her moving, away from whatever she is so keyed into - don't call her (you take a chance she won't respond and then she learns that the recall is meaningless) - just use other sounds to get her attention and redirect her to a point in the scenario where she is not mesmerized by whatever it is. When you are able to get any kind of response again, work from that point. Work on making sure that she understands that paying attention to you means she gets a great payoff! - most dogs, particularly outgoing, high-drive and food-motivated dogs don't find praise and petting only to be a great payoff. So, say you are out walking and she tries to pull you toward a lovely bush that probably has all kinds of odor on it. Pulling doesn't get her what she wants. You stop and wait her out - you may have to go back farther than you were when you stopped to give her a better chance of success. When she stops trying to pull toward said bush (depending on level of excitement, you may need to mark the instant you have any looseness in the line), mark that and treat her. She may try again and you do the same thing again. Walk up a step or two. She pulls. Same thing, so go back again and repeat process. If there comes a time where you move forward and she does NOT pull, jackpot! Try to move forward again - pull equals, no response, no treat, no smell, nothing. Eventually you want her to learn that, pulling does NOT get her what she wants, but if she walks nicely, not only can she get treats, she will ALSO get to smell the bush, so she is doubly rewarded.

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Rottie Mommy in WI - USA
 
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RottieWoman
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I realize the "Stop and Be a Tree" doesn't always work, especially with bigger dogs. If you stop and she gets frustrated, grabby, bouncy, etc., try stepping on the leash so she can't jump, and just work on treating for any degree of "calm". So we're "going back to kindergarten" even further.

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Rottie Mommy in WI - USA
 
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tigerente
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She doesn't get bouncy or grabby, she pulls forward toward her infinite goal of who knows what. If I chirp and wag a treat at her to get her back at my side, she doesn't even respond, if I took a treat and pried open her jaw at that point and tried to get her to swallow, she'd just spit it out. SHe won't listen to my voice at all, even my stern I mean business voice that in the house would make herget into line right away. The only thing that works to get her attention is to yank on the prong collar. I hate doing that, but it's the only thing that works. Then she is back to pulling in a matter of seconds. So we stop wait for her, and finally just turn around and go the other way. Then she pulls in that direction in a matter of seconds. Even when I have her attatched to her walkydog on my bike, she still tries to pull in whatever direction she wants to go in. Despite the fact that we are flying down the road practically faster than she can run.She can actually pull me up small hills on my bike, and I aint no lightweight! She loves running along with me on my bike though. She gets all worn out for the rest of the day in about a half an hour, or 3-5 miles.
When she goes rollerblading with my husband she is great and just runs along ahead of him and doesn't pull too much, unless she sees a cat or a squirrel. He grew up with a golden retriever that helped him deliver newspapers on his rollerblades, so he is well skilled in controlling her.
We just got back from our evening 2 mile walk. I made her carry water in her pack. She can carry two gallons and still pull like a donkey. But by the end, she was starting to get kind of worn out, and pulled slightly less. So in all today my dogs walked four miles and spent an hour running around at the dog park. That should be adequate for two mid energy dogs right? That's about an average day for us.
I have been looking into carting to give her an outlet for her pulling. Would that intensify the problem or by giving her a job could we perhaps relieve some boredom or drive that motivates her to pull ahead all the time.
I really just wish I could find that instant cure for her. There are so many things that have worked instantly for all the dogs I walk. Like haltis, wrapping the leash under their leg, make like a tree and instantly the dogs learn not to pull. But her, she defies me on every walk!
Oh well, love her anyway. She is gnawing on a bone right now. It is so loud that it practically drownes out the sound of my pug snoring away lol!
 
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Shiplesp
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Fri September 21, 2007 1:50 PM
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Pick up a copy of Leslie McDevitt's book Control Unleashed. It could go a long way toward helping you solve your issues with your pup.

Susan
 
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tigerente
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I'll definently try the leash in the house and out in the yard. That is what another trainer I know suggested. She doesn't even sniff at the ground or bushes. She doesn't mark, she just pulls ahead insearch of kitties and squirrels. I hurry her away from them when we see them, but she always sees them first and reacts before I even get a chance. She squeals and strains at the leash. I'll start jogging and acting silly at that point to get her focused on me, but she has an incredible attention span and she doesn't get over stuff very easily.
Also on her walks she isn't stressed. WHen she is stressed, she tucks her tail and pants, she is just over stimulated. I have thought about taking her out on the bike for about 3-4 miles and then walking her after that for another couple of miles. I think walking her when she is tired and hungry, she might focus more on me.
She loves the natural balance rolls, that always works indoors. She won't eat biscuits, and of course she loves things like cheese and meat. Its been a while since we used the freeze dried liver. Maybe I'll get some of that and try. I can't bring myself to carry raw meat around, but I think it'd probably work.
 
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hebertjosh
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Mon May 02, 2011 2:42 PM
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Has there been any answers to the questions on dogs urinating on other dogs? I have a 2 year old puggle, Jasper, who has just recently started urinating on my 3.5 year old beagle, Sully. Sully doesn't seem to mind, but it's particularly maddening to me! They get along great, no real power struggle between the 2 of them, they wrestle all the time, but neither one seems particularly submissive to the other. Any ideas out there?
 
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Cupie1223
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Tue May 03, 2011 6:22 PM
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Not sure if the peeing on each other question has been answered, but my male lab/great dane does it to my chow mix occassionally. There's no status issues between the two so in order to keep my sanity I make sure I am out there with them when they are sent out for potty only breaks to make sure Sister doesn't get a shower. I would suggest you moniter and make sure he doesn't have the chance to do it. As I believe Colliemom said, "sometimes a pee is just a pee". It may be better to just stop the behavior from being repeated rather than be too concerned about the cause as long as there aren't other issues at play between the two. Behavior that is continually thwarted, is less likely to continue later on.
Laura
 
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